<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0" xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/" xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/" xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom" xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/" > <channel><title>Comments on: It&#8217;s Time For A Real Wine Advocate &#8211; Part 1</title> <atom:link href="http://pinotblogger.com/2009/10/21/a-real-wine-advocate/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" /><link>http://pinotblogger.com/2009/10/21/a-real-wine-advocate/</link> <description>A blog about starting and building a family winery in the Russian River Valley.</description> <lastBuildDate>Tue, 18 Oct 2011 15:58:42 +0000</lastBuildDate> <sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod> <sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency> <generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1</generator> <item><title>By: It&#8217;s Time For A Real Wine Advocate &#8211; Part 2 &#124; Pinotblogger: the Capozzi Winery blog</title><link>http://pinotblogger.com/2009/10/21/a-real-wine-advocate/comment-page-1/#comment-251402</link> <dc:creator>It&#8217;s Time For A Real Wine Advocate &#8211; Part 2 &#124; Pinotblogger: the Capozzi Winery blog</dc:creator> <pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 00:38:10 +0000</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://pinotblogger.com/?p=1203#comment-251402</guid> <description>[...]      In my first lengthy missive on wine criticism, I went over the various flaws I see in the current system. In this post I&#8217;m going to outline [...]</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...]      In my first lengthy missive on wine criticism, I went over the various flaws I see in the current system. In this post I&#8217;m going to outline [...]</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Wayne Young</title><link>http://pinotblogger.com/2009/10/21/a-real-wine-advocate/comment-page-1/#comment-251325</link> <dc:creator>Wayne Young</dc:creator> <pubDate>Mon, 26 Oct 2009 15:30:35 +0000</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://pinotblogger.com/?p=1203#comment-251325</guid> <description>... Just for the record:WS points were agreed upon at the end of the writing of the tasting note (during the blind tasting itself). If there was dissent among the tasters, they would either hash it out between them, or agree to re-taste another sample in another session. Often the point scores were within a point or 2 of each other. If someone made a good enough case, the agreed upon score could go up or down.And if you need another palate, mine is available!</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8230; Just for the record:</p><p>WS points were agreed upon at the end of the writing of the tasting note (during the blind tasting itself). If there was dissent among the tasters, they would either hash it out between them, or agree to re-taste another sample in another session. Often the point scores were within a point or 2 of each other. If someone made a good enough case, the agreed upon score could go up or down.</p><p>And if you need another palate, mine is available!</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Appellation Beer: Beer From a Good Home &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Tasting: Double blind and by the numbers</title><link>http://pinotblogger.com/2009/10/21/a-real-wine-advocate/comment-page-1/#comment-251323</link> <dc:creator>Appellation Beer: Beer From a Good Home &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Tasting: Double blind and by the numbers</dc:creator> <pubDate>Fri, 23 Oct 2009 19:28:33 +0000</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://pinotblogger.com/?p=1203#comment-251323</guid> <description>[...] one explains the premise: There is a better way to review wine. It combines objective assessment with subjective preference [...]</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] one explains the premise: There is a better way to review wine. It combines objective assessment with subjective preference [...]</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Brian Social</title><link>http://pinotblogger.com/2009/10/21/a-real-wine-advocate/comment-page-1/#comment-251322</link> <dc:creator>Brian Social</dc:creator> <pubDate>Fri, 23 Oct 2009 06:53:27 +0000</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://pinotblogger.com/?p=1203#comment-251322</guid> <description>Josh, yes, if many reviewers followed the same rigorous system over time, more useful data would result.  But how to motivate reviewers to spend more time and money to &quot;get it right&quot;?  It&#039;s going to be hard to move them off the habit of listing a few aroma and taste descriptors and then consulting their gut for a point score.  Wine sales keep increasing in the US (checked only by the recent economic downturn), so why go beyond &quot;good enough&quot;?  That&#039;s the challenge, and I admire you for taking it on.Yes, double-blind tasting would destroy a lot of industry myths and there is probably a lot of industry back-scratching going on to discourage that behavior.  But there is precedent for upsetting the status quo, including Parker himself.  I think he brought a lot of ethical honesty to the tasting table.  He takes a beating for it - all the derisive talk of Parkerization, &quot;Mondovino,&quot; etc.  But he has obviously reaped incredible rewards as well.Like some others here (and maybe I&#039;m starting to repeat myself), I find the CT average score to be the most reliable tool for assessing a wine, assuming enough scores have gone into the average.  (How many?  I don&#039;t know... I think at least 10.)  It&#039;s a crude tool because each score is arrived at so differently, but even from these idiosyncratic data points, meaning and form eventually emerge - like a Seurat painting.  That said, there&#039;s always room for improvement, so I look forward to seeing how your experiment turns out.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Josh, yes, if many reviewers followed the same rigorous system over time, more useful data would result.  But how to motivate reviewers to spend more time and money to &#8220;get it right&#8221;?  It&#8217;s going to be hard to move them off the habit of listing a few aroma and taste descriptors and then consulting their gut for a point score.  Wine sales keep increasing in the US (checked only by the recent economic downturn), so why go beyond &#8220;good enough&#8221;?  That&#8217;s the challenge, and I admire you for taking it on.</p><p>Yes, double-blind tasting would destroy a lot of industry myths and there is probably a lot of industry back-scratching going on to discourage that behavior.  But there is precedent for upsetting the status quo, including Parker himself.  I think he brought a lot of ethical honesty to the tasting table.  He takes a beating for it &#8211; all the derisive talk of Parkerization, &#8220;Mondovino,&#8221; etc.  But he has obviously reaped incredible rewards as well.</p><p>Like some others here (and maybe I&#8217;m starting to repeat myself), I find the CT average score to be the most reliable tool for assessing a wine, assuming enough scores have gone into the average.  (How many?  I don&#8217;t know&#8230; I think at least 10.)  It&#8217;s a crude tool because each score is arrived at so differently, but even from these idiosyncratic data points, meaning and form eventually emerge &#8211; like a Seurat painting.  That said, there&#8217;s always room for improvement, so I look forward to seeing how your experiment turns out.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Josh Hermsmeyer</title><link>http://pinotblogger.com/2009/10/21/a-real-wine-advocate/comment-page-1/#comment-251321</link> <dc:creator>Josh Hermsmeyer</dc:creator> <pubDate>Fri, 23 Oct 2009 02:19:39 +0000</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://pinotblogger.com/?p=1203#comment-251321</guid> <description>@Brian You are absolutely right. This review alone doesn&#039;t allow any calibration on your part as to my subjective preferences. You will need many more reviews to be able to do that.I wasn&#039;t hoping to show that my opinion of wine should lead consumers in their buying decisions though. What I&#039;m hoping to show is that the system itself is useful is creating valid and relevant data points. Those data points can then be aggregated in a much more useful fashion, especially if you want to rely on the wisdom of the crowds.Imagine if a multitude of people reviewed wine this way online! How useful would an aggregate review be then?Very useful, IMO. :-)</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Brian You are absolutely right. This review alone doesn&#8217;t allow any calibration on your part as to my subjective preferences. You will need many more reviews to be able to do that.</p><p>I wasn&#8217;t hoping to show that my opinion of wine should lead consumers in their buying decisions though. What I&#8217;m hoping to show is that the system itself is useful is creating valid and relevant data points. Those data points can then be aggregated in a much more useful fashion, especially if you want to rely on the wisdom of the crowds.</p><p>Imagine if a multitude of people reviewed wine this way online! How useful would an aggregate review be then?</p><p>Very useful, IMO. <img src='http://pinotblogger.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /></p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Josh Hermsmeyer</title><link>http://pinotblogger.com/2009/10/21/a-real-wine-advocate/comment-page-1/#comment-251320</link> <dc:creator>Josh Hermsmeyer</dc:creator> <pubDate>Fri, 23 Oct 2009 02:10:05 +0000</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://pinotblogger.com/?p=1203#comment-251320</guid> <description>@Dennis I would so totally agree - if! the flaw I was discussing was at the bottle level. But it just isn&#039;t.Referment in bottle is a very big flaw, its a winery level flaw - macro - and I shouldn&#039;t have to purchase a second bottle to point it out.What I owe readers - and we are already assuming that my opinion holds some kind of sway in the market, which it doesn&#039;t - is a re-evaluation of AlbariÃ±o in general. But CdA isn&#039;t owed a re-sample simply on the basis of sending a flawed product (the worst flaw a wine can have from a producer perspective, in fact) to market.Can you imagine any similar discussion taking place about orange juice? What if the Odwalla in your refrigerator suddenly started fermenting? Would you require that a consumer go and buy a second bottle to confirm the flaw?There are in fact some wine falts that, on their face, deserve instant recognition. Re-ferment in bottle is IMO, one of them.Thanks for the discussion!</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Dennis I would so totally agree &#8211; if! the flaw I was discussing was at the bottle level. But it just isn&#8217;t.</p><p>Referment in bottle is a very big flaw, its a winery level flaw &#8211; macro &#8211; and I shouldn&#8217;t have to purchase a second bottle to point it out.</p><p>What I owe readers &#8211; and we are already assuming that my opinion holds some kind of sway in the market, which it doesn&#8217;t &#8211; is a re-evaluation of AlbariÃ±o in general. But CdA isn&#8217;t owed a re-sample simply on the basis of sending a flawed product (the worst flaw a wine can have from a producer perspective, in fact) to market.</p><p>Can you imagine any similar discussion taking place about orange juice? What if the Odwalla in your refrigerator suddenly started fermenting? Would you require that a consumer go and buy a second bottle to confirm the flaw?</p><p>There are in fact some wine falts that, on their face, deserve instant recognition. Re-ferment in bottle is IMO, one of them.</p><p>Thanks for the discussion!</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Josh Hermsmeyer</title><link>http://pinotblogger.com/2009/10/21/a-real-wine-advocate/comment-page-1/#comment-251319</link> <dc:creator>Josh Hermsmeyer</dc:creator> <pubDate>Fri, 23 Oct 2009 01:57:27 +0000</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://pinotblogger.com/?p=1203#comment-251319</guid> <description>@Tom Your comments are spot on - but!I&#039;m not suggesting we do away with the 100 point system - in fact I say we embrace it. So really, there is no cause to criticize for too much information, or for some commodious volume of technical data. These are optional to the the wine buyer who simply doesn&#039;t care. The lede of the review includes price, the score and what I thought the wine was blind. If you just want my opinion on the wine, its all there in 4 or 5 sentences.That&#039;s why I think the system is powerful and valuable. Not because of what&#039;s been taken away, but because of what&#039;s been added.Thanks for the comment, and for the kind words. I did note them and they are appreciated, as is the critique. :-)</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Tom Your comments are spot on &#8211; but!</p><p>I&#8217;m not suggesting we do away with the 100 point system &#8211; in fact I say we embrace it. So really, there is no cause to criticize for too much information, or for some commodious volume of technical data. These are optional to the the wine buyer who simply doesn&#8217;t care. The lede of the review includes price, the score and what I thought the wine was blind. If you just want my opinion on the wine, its all there in 4 or 5 sentences.</p><p>That&#8217;s why I think the system is powerful and valuable. Not because of what&#8217;s been taken away, but because of what&#8217;s been added.</p><p>Thanks for the comment, and for the kind words. I did note them and they are appreciated, as is the critique. <img src='http://pinotblogger.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /></p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Brian Social</title><link>http://pinotblogger.com/2009/10/21/a-real-wine-advocate/comment-page-1/#comment-251318</link> <dc:creator>Brian Social</dc:creator> <pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 23:46:24 +0000</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://pinotblogger.com/?p=1203#comment-251318</guid> <description>Dennis, thanks for the comment.  Not to unfairly pile on Josh though.  He&#039;s striving to improve wine reviewing and I cannot commend that effort wholeheartedly enough.At this point, I&#039;m just very curious to see how an unflawed bottle (if available) of the same 2008 Condes de Albarei AlbariÃ±o would fare under your review system, Josh.  We&#039;d probably all give a badly flawed bottle a 63 or lower.  So that doesn&#039;t tell me much.  But if I knew what your system awards to a decent-to-good AlbariÃ±o, then I could start to meaningfully calibrate your review against my own experiences.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dennis, thanks for the comment.  Not to unfairly pile on Josh though.  He&#8217;s striving to improve wine reviewing and I cannot commend that effort wholeheartedly enough.</p><p>At this point, I&#8217;m just very curious to see how an unflawed bottle (if available) of the same 2008 Condes de Albarei AlbariÃ±o would fare under your review system, Josh.  We&#8217;d probably all give a badly flawed bottle a 63 or lower.  So that doesn&#8217;t tell me much.  But if I knew what your system awards to a decent-to-good AlbariÃ±o, then I could start to meaningfully calibrate your review against my own experiences.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Brian Social</title><link>http://pinotblogger.com/2009/10/21/a-real-wine-advocate/comment-page-1/#comment-251317</link> <dc:creator>Brian Social</dc:creator> <pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 23:32:43 +0000</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://pinotblogger.com/?p=1203#comment-251317</guid> <description>Tom, I agree with your comment on the wisdom of crowds.  (See my comment above: &quot;...I try to aggregate reviews on a wine before buying, because I tend to value the communityâ€™s assessment more than the individualâ€™s, even if we have similar palates.&quot;)  CellarTracker notes, augmented with other reviews and notes available online, usually give me a good feel for the consensus on all but the rarest wines.James, I always naturally understood the 100 point scale as similar to test scoring (A, B, C, D and F).  Anything under 70 is below average.  What if a wine deserved a 71?  Not a great wine, but definitely average and acceptable enough.  If we changed to a 30-point scale, the same wine would earn a 1.  On a scale from 1-30, 1 would be perceived as non-drinkable poison -- a death sentence.But you do have a point about grade inflation.  No matter the scale, how to condition people to use more of it, rather than to cluster most scores between 85-92?  I don&#039;t know the answer to that one.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tom, I agree with your comment on the wisdom of crowds.  (See my comment above: &#8220;&#8230;I try to aggregate reviews on a wine before buying, because I tend to value the communityâ€™s assessment more than the individualâ€™s, even if we have similar palates.&#8221;)  CellarTracker notes, augmented with other reviews and notes available online, usually give me a good feel for the consensus on all but the rarest wines.</p><p>James, I always naturally understood the 100 point scale as similar to test scoring (A, B, C, D and F).  Anything under 70 is below average.  What if a wine deserved a 71?  Not a great wine, but definitely average and acceptable enough.  If we changed to a 30-point scale, the same wine would earn a 1.  On a scale from 1-30, 1 would be perceived as non-drinkable poison &#8212; a death sentence.</p><p>But you do have a point about grade inflation.  No matter the scale, how to condition people to use more of it, rather than to cluster most scores between 85-92?  I don&#8217;t know the answer to that one.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Dennis Schaefer</title><link>http://pinotblogger.com/2009/10/21/a-real-wine-advocate/comment-page-1/#comment-251316</link> <dc:creator>Dennis Schaefer</dc:creator> <pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 23:26:55 +0000</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://pinotblogger.com/?p=1203#comment-251316</guid> <description>I&#039;m with Brian on this. You used a flawed bottle to make a big splash (see all the reverent comments about how awesome this approach is)and stylishly illustrate your point.You owed it to everyone involved to get a second bottle.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m with Brian on this. You used a flawed bottle to make a big splash (see all the reverent comments about how awesome this approach is)and stylishly illustrate your point.</p><p>You owed it to everyone involved to get a second bottle.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> </channel> </rss>
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