Ah, Facebook.
In 2008 in Wine: A Global Business (Second Edition), I wrote the following about Facebook:
Currently wineries are having a difficult time determining how best to take advantage of this communications channel. It may well be that the best way to leverage social networks and the vast amounts of data contained in them will be in interpreting, rather than influencing, consumer preferences.”
That was 2 years ago. In the period since, Facebook has tried to address the problem that wineries and other businesses were facing. Namely, “How do we use Facebook to sell stuff?”
Facebook’s answer, in December 2009, was the following: “We will give you unfettered access to folks’ public and private information.”
While this doesn’t specifically answer the question of how to use people’s private information to sell them things, it does answer the question of what business Facebook is in, and how they plan to monetize their user base. Moreover, it makes crystal clear the types of tactics businesses will be required to engage in to try and leverage the “vast amounts of data.” With this out in the open, it is now incumbent on wineries and brands to decide if they want to engage with Facebook on these terms.
The answer for all wine brands, indeed all business who value the trust and loyalty they have cultivated in their customer base, must be a resounding “No.”
To see why, you don’t have to go much farther than the recent New York Times info-graphic visualizing the ways in which Facebook has made it nearly impossible for users to secure their private information from complete strangers and businesses. Incredibly, their privacy policy has quintupled in size in the past 6 years and is now longer then the U.S. Constitution.
The danger for wine brands in continuing to use Facebook as a sales and marketing channel are legion, but perhaps the most compelling reason is relationships.
Direct to consumer
Direct to consumer is now vital for the health and survival of even medium to large wine brands. This direct relationship is based on trust. While most users might not know it yet, Facebook is quickly taking on water. It is a sinking ship. Key influencers are deleting their accounts and the media, which loves to tear down that which it has built up, is quickly jumping on the bandwagon and beginning to dig in earnest.
Very soon it will become exceedingly clear that allowing random strangers, businesses, criminals and perverts to see photos of you that have been uploaded by “friends” without your consent, and who have then “tagged” you in them for anyone to find is a gross invasion of privacy. Indeed, there is only one set of people who stand to suffer more than Facebook after their ham-fisted and greedy attempt to monetize a service they don’t have the courage to charge access for: Companies.
The Bottom Line
Bottom line: Even if you never plan to advertise or otherwise leverage Facebook’s “social graph,” You do not want your brand tainted, even by association, by the sh*tstorm that is engulfing Facebook.
(You’ve heard about the movie, right?)
Many wineries and wine brands have been reluctant to embrace social media because they didn’t see the benefit. In short, they were risk averse.
I say unto you now, there can be no doubt that the risks of maintaining a presence on, and thus providing a tacit endorsement of, Facebook far outweigh any benefits you can possibly think to imagine. Act accordingly.
You can delete your Facebook account here: http://www.facebook.com/help/contact.php?show_form=delete_account .
DrHo.ro
3 months ago
Does this mean that I have to find a new ride to this month’s Facebook meetup?
Josh
3 months ago
I only ghost-ride the whip to Facebook meetups. If you’re cool with that, sure!
DrHo.ro
3 months ago
Ghost ride my Volvo! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlTvSUCCqPo
20somethingwino
3 months ago
With all of these wineries going as far as hiring social media staff, its good to see that at least 1 person in the wine industry isn’t caving. I’m hoping Facebook is just a trend, like Myspace, and that wineries can still survive by simply using good old fashioned marketing. Lets type less and drink more!
Cdurz
3 months ago
Hmmm, not sure I agree with you here (although I love all your blogs and I respect your opinion). It is very easy to do privacy settings on Facebook. Yeah, Zuckerbug is kind of an idiot for making all the settings “opt out” instead of “opt in.” But you can have it set up that nobody but your friends (or nobody at all) sees pictures that you are tagged in. Just my 2 cents. As a winery on Facebook, we communicate a lot with customers via the channel. It is not the end all and be all of our marketing plan…and we certainly do not have a social director here working on it full time. But it is a part of our overall plan.
And how would I get to see pictures of all my friends kids if I deleted my Facebook Account??
El Jefe
3 months ago
Josh, I don’t decide where my customers engage with my brand, my customers do. As long as they stay on Facebook, I’ll be there for them. And if they go someplace else, I’ll go there too. If and when they want to stop engaging on Facebook, I’ll respect that.
@20, I’m not sure what “old fashioned marketing” you are referring to…? Should I go back to hawking my wares on a street corner? I’m not here to survive, I’m here to succeed!
Josh
3 months ago
Jefe,
Not impugning anyone for staying, at least not vigorously :-p
You go where the fish are, sure. But there is also a place for trustworthy businesses to be leaders, especially when they understand the tech and privacy implications as well as some of the folks in the wine biz do.
While each person is individually responsible for their actions, the weak links in a social network (“friends”) can cause major privacy issues under the Facebook privacy regime.
By leading the charge you not only hasten the development of the next Facebook (remember when Myspace was thought to be invincible?), but you make it clear to your customers that you value them and their relationship over some rather nebulously defined future revenue.
El Jefe
3 months ago
I totally agree that FB has handled this badly and that they have work to do to clean up the *%#&@!-storm they have created – however, at least within my circle of friends and fans, no one is talking about it**. I have a strong feeling if I announced that me and Twisted Oak were shutting down our pages and leaving FB the news would be met with a resounding “huh?” And then where do I lead them to? Do I just shut down for a year while hoping a viable alternative gets developed (and even longer to actually get widely used)?
BTW, I never thought Myspace was invincible. I thought it was a “wretched hive of scum and villainy”
And nobody there talks about wine.
** Well, you and I are. But I meant otherwise
Lisa Spangenberg
3 months ago
It’s actually not easy to change privacy settings; the UI has been deliberately made complicated. There are points where you need to click five times before you arrive at a setting.
If you’re curious about what your FaceBook settings are making available to FaceBook and the world (keep in mind that FaceBook is scraping user content and re-using it on Community pages that FaceBook controls) see these two sites:
http://zesty.ca/facebook/
http://www.reclaimprivacy.org/
I would also urge people to create a Business ID and a Personal ID.
El Jefe
3 months ago
I would urge people to never share on Facebook or any other service anything they wouldn’t also post on the bulletin board at the local market, or read aloud at a public meeting, or show their Mom.
Joel
3 months ago
Wow, Jeff. The good old fashion e-mail philosophy! I wonder if people around here realize that you email can be forwarded FAR FAR easier then your Facebook stuff…
Steve Heimoff
3 months ago
Interesting conversation. Not sure where I come down on it. Just have to wait and see. But I have a feeling FB will be around for a while.
Lisa Spangenberg
3 months ago
Here’s a graphic from the New York Times that shows just how complicated the Privacy settings are; there are 50 settings with more than 170 options.
Speaking as a developer, this is a super example of obfuscation by design; you make the UI so complicated, and bury the settings, so that people will abandon the prospect of making changes.
Josh
3 months ago
Lisa,
I linked to the infographic in the original post, so I’ll just let your link comment stay in the spam folder. But really appreciate your comments!
NEWSFETCH - May 18, 2010 | Wine Industry Insight
3 months ago
[...] I Quit Facebook, Wineries Should Too [...]
Jon Bjork
3 months ago
I’m going with El Jefe on this one. With Facebook I’m able to connect with old friends and friends of friends and stay up to date with what’s going on. I don’t post anything in comments or on my profile that I wouldn’t want every eyeball on earth to see. That’s one reason you don’t see much about my family, for example.
(Even this post is likely being crawled by google. I know because every so often a google alert shows me one of my random posts.)
So, personally, I think this privacy issue has gotten a bit out of hand.
Realize that if not Facebook, some other successful networking site would have eventually run up against the same issues.
I don’t plan on deleting my Facebook account any time soon.
Brent Johnson
3 months ago
Josh,
You missed a key word in your phrase, the word ‘selling’. Wineries (and other companies) should quit selling on facebook. It’s a social interaction platform designed for connections. It is possible to capitalize and monetize this platform but most companies will not be able to and will waste their time and possibly hurt their brand if they try to pushing their products at consumers.
To @El Jeff’s point “[he doesn’t] decide where [his] customers engage with [his] brand, [his] customers do. As long as they stay on Facebook, [he’ll] be there for them.†That doesn’t mean @El Jeff is going to sell to his facebook fans, it means he’ll socially engage his consumers to further connect the Twisted Oak brand with them. I agree that Zuckerbug’s opt-out practices aren’t best practices, but key influencers aren’t leaving facebook because of it, they are savvy and they are getting smarter and actually starting to care about what pictures they upload and what movies they ‘like.’
If wineries (or other companies) quit facebook their fans, their consumers and their club members will still be on facebook. They will continue to talk about the winery both positively and negatively and the winery is helpless to respond or communicate – that’s simply poor customer service (for the negative responses) and poor marketing (for the positive responses).
To sum up my points: Stop Selling, Start Communicating.
Josh
3 months ago
Ok, this is a meaty one. Thanks for the comment Brent!
I couldn’t disagree more. One of the best things any wine brand can do is associate itself with other brands, causes, what-have-you that reflect its values.
I have, at various times, yoked our plow to Apple, Moleskin, WordPress, T&C Surf Designs, American Apparel and others. These were all very conscious choices and much thought went into them.
Perhaps because I’ve never really seen a quantifiable benefit to Facebook it is easier for me to leave. But I’ve also never had the desire to hook my plow to their brand either, for a host of reasons.
Even if you are using Facebook just to have a conversation where your customers are, you are tacitly endorsing the medium. I can’t do that any longer. I owe the peeps more than just looking out for my brand’s interests.
My actions are communicating to them louder than any wall post what I value, what Capozzi values, and where we draw the line in terms of where commerce ends and a trusting, worthwhile relationship begins.
Thanks again Brent! You guys have the very best web platform for wineries going.
Chris C
3 months ago
Totally agree with Brent’s comments. If you don’t engage and control the message, it will continue to happen in isolation without your blessing. FB is a cocktail party, not a tradeshow, so act accordingly, and save SELLING for somewhere else..
Josh
3 months ago
If the cost of engaging is tacitly endorsing that my peeps get spied on, count me out.
You, of course, are free to come to a different conclusion.
But feel free to enlighten me: if the idea of interacting on Facebook is not, at the end of a long process that includes respect, trust, commitment, follow through, and good times, the sale of a bottle of wine, what in the world is the point?
And before you label that as crass, I encourage you to read through my many posts about, talks on, and classes taught on the subject of engagement on social media.
Joel
3 months ago
Everyone should be with El Jefe on this one. Its nice to protest and abstain as a conscientious objector, but then you should abstain from using email (or any webmail client) as a marketing tool as well. E-mail has no privacy controls and they all advertise to you by indexing your messages.
People need to learn that we face an era of Digital Citizenship and we need to get along in that world. Its seems wierd today, but email seemed weird 20 years ago and IM seemed weird 15 years ago (we had both at MIT before most people so it didn’t seem weird to me).
I immerse myself not only because I’m a freakin’ tool but because I have two small kids that will be teenage girls some day and I’ll be damned if I don’t understand their world and I can’t teach them how to take care of themselves as a digital citizen. Also, I speak with many small businesses (particularly wineries) that don’t have nearly the time I do to check these things out so I can advise them as a by-product.
The privacy thing needs watch dogging and I don’t know why privacy groups aren’t putting out more advisories and tools on working with it and why they’re not working with FB to correct these issues. But as Jeff said, as a business you need to go where people are and there are 400M people on FB. Having a presence there makes their life easier.
I don’t totally disagree with you. I used the reclaimprivacy.org site and saw a hole in my privacy. Its confusing, but I fixed it.
If you ask me, the location thing is f***ed. People sharing where they are all the time scares the crap out of me. But then again, I grew up in a place where homes and cars get robbed and you have to lock your doors at night so maybe I’m just more conscious of how f’ing stupid it is to share your location publicly (a private network of very close friends is different; but posting location to Twitter? Yikes!).
Josh
3 months ago
Joel,
Look, you’re as expert as they come with understanding and dealing with social media, marketing and tech. And you still found a hole in your privacy.
Forwarding an email is one piece of data. It is not a database of every friend, every like, every relationship update, every photo.
At the beginning of my interaction on Facebook I felt the same way you folks do. We all should learn to manage out online personas. Only idiots get themselves fired on Twitter, Facebook or their blog. But I can barely get my Dad to understand how to compose and send an email, and he’s on Facebook. Do we just say, “well that’s the price you pay for ignorance?” Maybe. But when one of the settings that I didn’t un-check was *to allow all my friends’ application access to my personal data* because it was hidden away someplace completely counter-intuative, I realized that every weak link in my social graph was actually a weak link for my privacy as well.
Joel
3 months ago
Its not unsolvable though. We’re actually in agreement but I think you’re using hyperbole to illustrate a valid point. Baby and bathwater come to mind.
I still don’t get the whole lack of watchdog groups on the FB privacy thing. Its as bad as you say today. You know why? The f’ing CEO is 25 years old and arrogant. Shit, I thought I knew everything at 17, then at 25 I thought I was an idiot at 17. At 33 I thought I was an idiot at 25. It wasn’t until 4.5 years ago when Kendra was born that I realized I still don’t know shit about shit and I’ve been winging it all along and I’ll be winging it well into the future.
Also, FB is a business and they are trying to make money. That doesn’t stop your customers from being there. I suggest that you be a mentor to your Facebook customers. Send them to “Reclaimprivacy.org”, tell them to run it. Tell them to hide everything so that even you as their “dealer” can’t get to their private stuff if you wanted to. Send emails to them telling them what you can see about them and how they can stop you. Provide a service to your fans on FB. Because at the end of the day, they’re not going to drop it.
Why won’t I drop it? Like you, my Dad is on FB. Unlike you, my Dad is in NY and I don’t see him much. We keep in touch. I actually hate FB and have hated it always. But I got forced into it because I can’t ask all those family and old high school friends to drop FB and send me an email instead and I suspect the people who want Capozzi Pinot won’t drop it either so don’t cut off your nose to spite your face (which I guess is my only point).
Josh
3 months ago
I would submit, with respect, that what you call hyperbole and throwing the baby out with the bathwater is actually a principled stand.
If conversations about Capozzi happen on Facebook without me being there to inflict myself upon those having the chat, I’m OK with that. One of the things I’ve worked hard to do is build a platform for the brand that is independent of any walled gardens. If people want to ask me a question or engage in conversation, I’m easy to find.
But as to the rest, yeah we are in perfect agreement. The main point of my post, if I had to boil it down, is this:
The benefits to being on Facebook are nebulous and hard to quantify for most brands. The risk is equally hard to quantify, but it exists, and is larger than ever before.
Given the above, the prudent choice is to find another avenue to engage your customers.
Joel
3 months ago
I’ll tell you what I’m seriously considering quitting…Twitter. Or at least resetting my account and flushing everyone out that I’m following.
My Twitter page is a long stream of broadcasts most of which are not useful links. I find some good ones – like Tish’s link to here. ANd I always try to send out valuable links. But the crap that is coming through is just driving me crazy. There is definitely a point of diminished returns.
Nothing to do with privacy because there is no illusion of privacy on Twitter. Its more a matter of use case and diminishing returns.
Elaine Marshall
3 months ago
An interesting piece. I think I come down on the side of El Jefe, Joel, and Brent. I encourage my winery clients to be authenic and to communicate the brand using FB as a means of making a connection. It’s another way for my small winery clients to keep on being top of mind when next a purchasing decision is made – that’s it. And it’s greener than mail (and cheaper than ads.) I’m not ready to blast FB or to ditch it, and I won’t tell my clients to do so, either.
Josh
3 months ago
Or they could be remembered as being one of the first Brands to communicate via their actions that they truly care about their customer’s privacy.
Don’t pretend there is no downside either. You should be advising them of the risks as well as the perceived benefits.
Andrew Kamphuis
3 months ago
On one hand I completely agree with Josh and I think it’s awesome that he takes a stand. I have been talking about facebook privacy around the office since facebook launched the social graph. (Actually I’ve been speaking out against privacy on Facebook since I started playing with Facebook Connect and saw what I was actually sharing with 3rd party sites).
On the other hand I agree with Jeff and we need to be there because our customers are there. Conversations (meaningful conversations) are happening on Facebook. Some of our clients I’ve never met face-to-face and only have met on Facebook.
Facebook privacy is out of control and does need to be reined in. While you could argue that one should know better than to put something private on Facebook, the reality is with 400 million users, most people don’t know better. (Just visit failbook.com to see how many people don’t know better).
I think it’s up to users to keep creating sh*t storms and complaining. If enough people take a stand like Josh. If enough people use sites like reclaimprivacy.org (which I personally have used) a change will come.
Josh, I personally think it’s great for you and Capozzi that you take a stand.
David Honig
3 months ago
Fascinating conversation. Josh’s last post might be the most interesting. It is not just a matter of quitting Facebook out of privacy concerns, but turning that into a marketing opportunity.
I am still not sure about Facebook. It appears that it brings in readers outside the circle of wine bloggers/producers/marketers, and if so (jury is still out), then there is a benefit. The dirty little secret about social media and wine is that most of it is just us talking to each other. Any technology that breaks out of that circle is valuable.
Is it more valuable than the moral/marketing opportunity to take a stand for privacy? That is a purely cost/benefit analysis for each business to take.
Finally, some of this depends upon how you use Facebook. If you use it for a limited purpose, e.g. “wine,” and set up an entirely unrelated account for non-wine friends, or just don’t accept any non-wine friends, many of the individual privacy concerns disappear, though they remain for your clients/customers/readers. But they make their own choices.
Ian Griffith
3 months ago
Maybe Joel already said this, but to build on the marketing opportunity point, instead of quitting Facebook there is also an opportunity to reach out to customers and encourage them to think critically about how their information is used. If your business is based on convincing customers to trust your recommendations, then surely making a case for closing the holes in their privacy is a way you can earn their trust. From a business perspective it could make great sense to explain the risks and encourage your customers to use the reclaimprivacy.org tool.
Robin Coolidge
3 months ago
As a small winery that relies on local traffic Facebook has been a great marketing tool. Our “Fans” get to stay in touch with what is going on, and they feel connected to us in the same way they are connected to friends and family. I agree with the poster that said if we were to pull out our “Fans” would most likely go “huh?”, and they would definately not get that we were taking a moral stance to protect their privacy.
Josh
3 months ago
Or you could make it an event. I won’t insult you by going into too much detail, but a 10 day countdown before you quite educating them as to why, with special deals and tie-in events at the tasting room. You could also pepper each announcement with links to the ways your peeps can reach you outside of Facebook, like Twitter, your blog, posterous etc.
You can achieve the same feeling of community without the spying. Which is actually a better community, based on trust and respect.
Kerri Cooper
3 months ago
I have to agree with Robin. Our winery sells direct to consumer and Facebook has been a great way for us to round out our communications with customers and fans. Keeps them in the loop regularly. I don’t look at FB as the end all to marketing our wines but it is a nice addition. Just last week I posted a special on wines and had fantastic response that resulted in a great week of sales:)
Josh
3 months ago
You’ll do what’s best for your brand, of course.
Just make sure you count the costs, including the risk.
If the benefits outweigh the costs, stay. I submit, however, that you aren’t properly counting the costs if a few sales here and there are enough to get you to stay.
Dennis McDonald
3 months ago
This is one of the best conversations about Facebook I’ve seen – congrats to all.
I think it’s possible to make convincing arguments on either side of the stay-or-go argument; the fact that FB has explicitly made it so difficult to control access is a tip off to me that they don’t have my interests at heart. That said, one can still make the stay-or-go decision based on the weighing of views such as presented here.
From a marketing perspective, though, you have to consider whether the medium itself will rub off some of its un-trustworthiness onto even its most squeaky-clean users and that you, the business using FB, may be — unfairly — tarred and feathered for your willingness to use the tool.
Staying with Facebook says something about your reputation whether you like it or not so you have to then weigh whether the danger to your reputation is worth the risk — and you know how “easy” it is to repair your reputation once it’s tainted.
Robert McIntosh (@thirstforwine)
3 months ago
Josh, I’m a bit late to the conversation (I blame the London Wine Trade Fair as you posted this just as we were setting up). I have written a response on my blog – which should be easy enough to find.
In summary, I have to salute the principle, but I think the conclusion is not correct.
Thanks for the great conversation starter!
ryan
3 months ago
To cut one’s nose of to spite the face? Is that a closer analogy?
Facebook knows they have a problem, and they will either fix it or they will fall prey to someone smarter and more agressive in getting the consumers needs met. That said, I can see no way or no one who would link your presence on Facebook to a flaw in your moral or ethical character.
Facebook is. It might not always be, but it is now. It’s pretty harmless. Privacy be damned, we’re not talking about much more then creepy ad serving practices at this point.
Also would it not be more moral if you were to stay and to educate your “fans” about how to play safe on Facebook? Help to show them that they are able to protect themselves? Rather than run away and leave them there with a ‘?’ where your account used to be? Maybe by helping them you could be taking a higher ground, than leaving them to fend for themselves?
Great post. Hope you’ll be at the WBC so we can have some more fun discussions!
Josh
3 months ago
Ryan,
There is no protection. And I have no trust that future “fixes” will remedy this. Further Facebook should not be rewarded for bad behavior.
And what exactly are brands losing by not being on Facebook? A few sales. Probably not even a percentage point in total direct sales.
I encourage every winery to try and quantify their Facebook presence. If the benefits outweigh the costs (including the risk), stay. But I submit that to downplay the risk is pretty indefensible at this point. See below.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOEMv0S8AcA
http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2009/09/20/project_gaydar_an_mit_experiment_raises_new_questions_about_online_privacy/
I’m not here to disparage folks who are social media consultants, but you really should recognize that you are putting yourself in a pinch here if you continue to recommend Facebook to your clients without informing them of the very real risks.
John Dale
3 months ago
This is an interesting micro-media discussion u have here. I make paintings of birds and grapes for a living, usually with birds chosen for their color, not because of any intrinsic relation to pinot noirs, for example. So I have an avid interest in the postings of photos on wine blogs, winery websites, etc., especially during harvest, as photos posted give me all the info I need about the structure and disposition of the vines, the leaves and the grape clusters. Facebook as a source material is sometimes more interesting since people’s comments are often quite informative. So, I get info from winery owners and enthusiasts in a way that is sponotaneous and usually to the point, especially in terms of what too much rain did, pruning issues, leaf management, etc. So, I love this virally transmitted info. However, if it were done in manner that is more like the one way tv media or spam, that would be different. I welcome wineries presence on FB since I can ask questions like why don’t all wineries use netting to protect from birds, how much spraying w/ pesticides is done, how does leaf management take place in their climate, what characteristics is the grower wanting in their Merlot, etc., not to mention getting to know something about the owners. This is not all bad. Guarding from predatory business people and abusers is a must, but that’s the nature of all Internet experience, n’est-ce pas? Anyway, when I have learned enough, it has led me to order a case or two, maybe three, sometimes four …